Waxman’s latest offering, The Complete Macrobiotic Diet: 7 Steps to Feel Fabulous, Look Vibrant and Think Clearly, is wonderfully accessible and encouraging, full of easy-to-follow recipes by his teacher-chef wife, Susan, and thankfully free of preachy, judgement-riddled polemics that can trip up even the strongest of wills. Below, Waxman—with Susan chiming in—talked in depth about his life’s passion and offers a primer on his approach to macrobiotic eating as outlined in his book, just in time to prevent you from completely falling off that New Year’s healthy-new-you resolution horse.

PW: First of all, what exactly is the macrobiotic way of life, and how are most people led to it?
DENNY WAXMAN: Macrobiotics is essentially an orderly approach to life.  We have a certain way of choosing dietary and lifestyle practices.  The diet is based on grains, beans, vegetables.  Basically, it’s the oldest and the most progressive way of eating on the planet.  All the world’s long-standing civilization is grain-, bean- and vegetable-based without exception. Whether it’s the Far East, India, the Middle East or Europe or Africa, they’re all based on grains, beans, vegetables and soups.  Now, scientific research bears that out as the healthiest way of eating, so that’s what makes it the most progressive at the same time.  What Susan and I have done is widened out to include a wide range of cultures that are all on similar climatic zones.  Our recommendations are not only with diet.  The change that we have really made from the way macrobiotics has been introduced and practiced is strongly emphasizing the approach to eating: how you eat, sitting down and taking time for your meals and eating at regular times.  Each one of these things becomes validated by science.  I just read an article today that [says] there’s a 12-hour eating window, and no matter what you eat within that window has a better affect than when you eat outside of it.  Originally, [the original research] was eight hours.  But they tried nine hours, 12 hours and 15 hours, and they found that whatever is eaten in a 12-hour period does not really affect people in a negative way.

Your approach is very much about mindful eating, as opposed to mindless eating.  Was that your goal?
DW:  It was. For many years, I’ve tried to figure why so many people do better than others, and what are the key factors?  It finally occurred to me that the approach to eating, eating habits and so-called mindful eating, automatically you have to make healthier food choices.  You feel more satisfied.  You get more in touch with what you need.  It is really the missing ingredients.  People say the macrobiotic diet.  I didn’t really want to call it the macrobiotic diet.  The publisher likes that name.  Diet is really, in its original sense, a way of life.  It’s how we’ve practiced for many years, so I just tried to put it all down systematically, and that’s how it developed into steps.

Your book was very easy to digest.  A lot of books try to cram in all these facts and preach to you about to why you should be doing certain things in a rigid format.  Yours seems very casual, like your sitting down and having a conversation with friends about life.  Was that deliberate?
DW:  I am not sure if it was.  Originally, my friend helped me transcribe some of my lectures, and that became a 10-steps book.  That was the beginning.  So, it has been a development and an evolution.  An old friend whom I haven’t seen for probably 15 years sent me an email saying how much she enjoyed the book, and she sent it out to all her friends, saying it’s just like having a conversation with Denny.  So, I guess other people have that impression too, which is great.

Is there a certain psychology around eating that you find most people have to address and change before they commit to macrobiotics?  Something that you had to approach in dealing with your clients? 
DW:  Of course.  You touched on two points: One, we see health as a direction rather than a state.  Health is something that you move towards through your diet and daily lifestyle practices, which means the most important thing is just the desire to have a better and healthier life. That is really where it stems from. But, in our way of eating, there is a whole range of natural sweetness: the sweetness from grains, vegetables, juices and all kinds of other things. The key is to bring out the natural sweetness of the food.  Conversely, there is nothing that is sweet and healthy that I can find in the modern diet.  It’s all refined sugar, refined foods and artificial sweeteners. Sweetness and health are not thought of as going together. At the same time, truly healthy food has a natural sweetness, which is really an important part—and brings out another point:  Everybody’s thinking Drink liquid, but healthy food always has a high water content.  So all grains, all beans, all vegetables, all salads, all soups are naturally refreshing.  Foods that we’re promoting have a natural refreshing quality, so we don’t have to have an incessant need to [hydrate all the time].  It is part of the food, which becomes the most usable liquid.  Your body utilizes liquid in food much better than liquid we take by drinking.

Reading through the book and looking at some of the recipes, the concept of a sweet vegetable never occurred to me.
DW: What happens is when you start to eat this way, you rediscover your natural taste for food.  You discover taste that you didn’t know existed before.  That’s one factor.  And then our cooking enhances that taste, so it makes it easier to get in touch with it.  People think this way of eating is giving something up, but it’s really for people who love food the most.  It really is.

Tell me about the Strengthening Health Institute.
SUSAN WAXMAN:  I’m a co-director.  I’m in charge of all the food stuff.  We both do curriculum development for a lot of the lecture content.  We’ll go over yes, no and curriculum development for all the cooking classes that we do.

DW:  When I got these ideas back in the early ‘90s, I started to travel doing seminars in New York and Boston and London and Toronto and all over, and then I said, ‘This is getting old.  I’m tired of traveling already.’  I’m not an administrator by nature, but I said, ‘Okay it’s time to find another sport.’  And Susan and I were just getting it together at the time.  I started it, and then we basically developed it.  In 2002, we became a 501-c3, a non-profit.  We had our own space for about eight years, which we just gave up at the end of last year because all of our courses are [now] available online.  We’re going to have limited on-site seminars.  We’re going to be doing a monthly one-day program at Essene, then we have a four-day intensive, which we will also do on-site, and then we have a one-year-long program, and we’ll have two six-month on-site meetings with that.  Basically, we’re following the models that all the major universities are doing with limited-site learning.  We’re in the stage of transition. We’re excited.

SW:  Basically one of the main reasons we did this is we have students from all over.  We have students from the West Coast, from the Texas area, from New York.  I think, with the way modern life is, a lot of people don’t want to take off time from work or they have children, and they still want to be able to attend our classes so that they can begin to implement things and help their families with a better life, too.  This past year, we had seven people from Malaysia who took our course online.  That was more like the catalyst.  We have people who are interested from India and people who are interested from the United Arab States.  We have a lot of interest out there.  And also people from Europe too.  It’s global.

What kind of classes do you teach at the Institute?  What’s the curriculum?
DW: We have [students] who are just looking for better health and support.  We also do career training for people who want to do this professionally, learn how to coach others or cook for people.  One of the other reasons for giving up our space is that it freeze up space and time for us to develop new programs and curriculums.  What we’re really working on now is a mentorship program.  I figured it’s time to really start to pass these things on, the things that we’ve gathered over all these years.  We’re hoping to launch that in April, the new program for people who are really serious about this.

That number has to be getting bigger and bigger.  More people are developing a sort of consciousness around mindful living overall, so the whole idea of people being able to learn these things and teach them to others makes sense. 
SW:  There are health coaches all over, but what does that really mean?  What is a health coach?  Often times, what we’ve found is that you see a lot of health coach things where they’re really versed well about setting up a business, yet what we’re versed well at is helping people create lasting health.  That’s our forte.  I would say that’s our expertise and what we’re good at.  People that do take our classes get so many different benefits, whether it’s on a personal level or helping their family or friends.  A lot of people who come say, ‘I’m not interested in this as a profession.”  But midway through, they’re like, ‘Maybe I’m going to start looking at doing this a little bit more professionally.’  It’s interesting.

That makes sense. Because it feels like service. 
SW: You feel that way about what you do because you’re helping someone create a better life, especially when you work with parents and their children.  That’s the future: young people.

DW:  You touched on two points. One is that our expertise is doing what medicine can’t. We help people in doing what medicine can’t in two ways. If you look at the testimonials, we’ve helped a lot of people recover from terminal diseases. People respond amazing well to just dietary and lifestyle changes.  It helps your natural ability, your immune system, really get into gear.  The other thing we do is help people create lasting health.  If you look at all the people who have natural longevity, the things we are offering are the same that these people are doing throughout the world.  So, it’s just a natural part of a way of life.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with The China Study and Colin Campbell?  Colin Campbell is a medical researcher who did the largest nutrition-based research ever done called The China Study.  In the last several years, his book has really taken off, and together with that, they did a video, Forks Over Knives, which became popular, and then they have a nutrition course at Cornell University that it is associated with.  His research documents validate every word that I say.  So, it’s almost like a companion book—and it happened by accident.  Not by accident; it happened by intention, I’m sure.  Over the past years, we’ve become good friends.  What’s happened is that now science is validating these things. So, there is Colin Campbell and Neil Bernard and PCR and Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine who are espousing these things.  Now they’re getting medical and scientific validation, and that’s inviting in many more people in the effort.  If I say, ‘Who are you?  What are your credentials?’  Well, I’ve been doing this for a long time and work speaks for itself.  But, people want scientific medical validation.  And that’s what’s happened now.  The combination of our ability to help people implement [these teachings] and the science has made a remarkable difference.  It’s really opened the doors to so many people.

SW:  What’s also unique about what we do is a lot a people want a lifestyle change, and they’ll think, ‘Oh, I’ll do a dietary change or an exercise regime.’ We’re not like a no-no diet. It’s more like letting the choice up to the individual. You’re not just starting with ‘I’m going to eliminate this and this, this and this.’  It’s more like what you can add into your daily routine. Maybe somebody doesn’t have a lot of time to cook, but they could add maybe a walk into their daily lifestyle. There are different practices. I feel like what we’ve become good at is trying to meet people where they’re at. If you cant do all of this, just try one thing and see how that makes you feel. And if that makes you feel good, then let’s try something else and what else can you build upon—because really it’s about what you create day to day, creating healthy habits and creating healthy choices.  It depends on the person.

How do you meet people where they are?  So many people have different issues, from feeling that they don’t have enough money to buy strictly organic things or not having easy access to certain kinds of ingredients.
DW: That’s a really important thing because people feel like it’s all or nothing, but it’s not. You can be a one day a week macro, one meal a week, one meal a day or full time. It’s really up to you. Some other research recently said that if you have one serving of whole grains daily, it greatly reduces your chances for cardiovascular disease, so even oatmeal porridge counts. My parents grew up with oatmeal everyday of their life. This is something that is common. You can have a serving of brown rice, or you can have a serving of polenta, or you can have a serving of oatmeal. But even one serving a day gives you substantial health benefits.

Do you think that its harder or easier now for people to make major lifestyle changes?  Now everything is so quick, and everyone is connected so digitally, but not personally connected.  Do you find that it’s easier for people to make those choices now then maybe it may have been years ago, or do you think it’s harder?
DW:  I think it’s both.

SW:  Yeah, I think it depends on the individual.  I think it’s more of an individual-basis, like what does the person need?  What is their desire, more or less?  Is there a really deep desire?

DW:  I think it’s partly that. The yes is the accessibility, which is more than ever before. You can buy healthy foods in super markets now. Then, you have places like Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s and health food stores, plus there are a countless number of books and all of these things. At the same time, because of society and people being so locked into their jobs and not wanting to take time off, the pressure to be there at work and eat through lunch makes it more difficult for people to make positive changes.  So, it’s a little bit of both.

Ultimately, it’s about your level of commitment.
DW:  Right.  It’s up to your desire.  People who want to always do.

What foods or food additives would you ban from every supermarket shelf if you could?
DW:  Artificial sweeteners are one of the absolute worst things that anybody could eat.  They’re pervasive.

SW:  That would include the list of sugars that are not so great for you.  I would include agave.

DW:  High fructose corn syrup was the next one I was going to say.

I love that you said agave because people think …
SW:  … that it’s okay. Or the natural plain sugar. All it is is dyed white sugar. And I would ban all foods that contain genetically modified organisms, GMOs. I think that it so huge, and it is so pervasive. I would label everything, but if I had my choice, I would ban farmers from growing it. I feel that strongly about it. Because you just don’t know what you’re getting when it comes to children’s foods, that are already out there, to pet foods.  That’s just crazy.

DW: According to Colin Campbell’s research, casein dairy protein is the most potent carcinogenic on the planet, a cancer-producing substance.  Its more degenerative illness can be attributed to cows’ dairy protein than any other food.  So, the promotion that milk is the perfect food?  Yes, your mother’s milk is.  When you’re nursed by your mother, there is nothing better.  And the same for a calf or a goat or whatever.  But to drink the milk of another species, especially the cow, is probably the most harmful thing out there.  My experience is the basis of not only immune problems, but also the combination of dairy foods and simple sugars.  I think that that is the most harmful combination that there is.

I’m curious about what you said about dairy because I went to my doctor for a regular check-up, and she asked how much dairy I ate, and I told her.  I thought I was having a lot of milk and yogurt every day, and she was like, ‘You need to kick it up, lady.’  A lot of people recommend yogurt as a healthy thing to eat, and a lot of doctors say, ‘Drink more milk, drink more milk.’  So, it’s just really interesting to hear this message from you, saying the latest science says it’s carcinogenic.  It’s just a very interesting contrast.  Do people come to you and ever say, ‘Really, I thought I was supposed to be chugging this stuff?’
DW:  Yeah, they do all the time.  Most of the people that come to me with serious problems made a serious attempt to improve their diet in the year or two before they come to see me.  Most of the information out there is misleading. It’s just wrong. Worldwide, people that eat dairy foods get osteoporosis, and people that don’t, don’t.

It’s almost as if they’re marketing to you to get you to buy things that make you sick so that you can then spend money getting well.
DW:  I won’t go that far, but in my book, there’s a brief history of food.  Basically what happened was because of [The Great Depression], they made four food recommendations worthy to economic groups. The richest people were encouraged to eat animal and dairy foods, and the poorest [were encouraged to eat] beans and nuts for protein. So, protein began—at the turn of the last century—to be promoted as an important food, especially with World War I. Then, the depression divided according to income. After the war, they started petroleum-based fertilizers.  So, after World War II, they had surpluses of grains and beans. What did they do with them? They raised animals. That’s when animal and dairy foods [came]. Then, they had to promote that.  In 1955 or ’56, when the Basic Fours was created by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, then came, ‘Eat your animal foods, eat your dairy foods, eat your fruits and vegetables, and eat your starches.’ So, animal and dairy foods after the 1950s became promoted as half of our diet.  You can see it’s a very clear progression. And as I mentioned, around the world, all long-standing civilizations were eating grains.  They were eating beans. They were eating vegetables, soups, pickled or fermented foods, mild beverages, all of the things that we recommend. The longevity measures the past, not the present. If you’re 100 years old today, that means you were born 100 years ago. You were born in 1915. That means you were eating real food.

It’s so interesting how consumerism and commerce sort of plays into it all.  It’s mind-boggling. 
DW.  Right.  So, to answer your question, dairy food is not healthy.  There is no safe amount of diary food, literally.

SW: And if your concern is calcium, there are plenty of other foods, and it’s abundant within the way we eat.  Beans and greens are the highest source of calcium.  Sesame seeds.  Sea vegetables.  Tahini is very high in calcium.

DW: They’re promoting yogurt as a probiotic.  But sauerkraut is so far superior to yogurt in every way.  It doesn’t have the downside.  It has all the benefits without the negatives of dairy food.  And then real miso soup.  Sauerkrautand real miso soup are two of the most important probiotics that there are.  And what macrobiotics does is we combine both of them.

SW: Not in the same dish.

For a lot of people, eating organic is so expensive.  What can the average consumer do to eat healthy without breaking their budget?
SW:  I think that if you’re buying a lot of prepackaged foods, then that gets really expensive.  If you are buying even a lot of meat, like good quality meats, I believe that gets expensive.  I wouldn’t know, because I haven’t eaten meat in well over 30 years.  So, when you compare the price to grains, which often times you can buy in a bulk bin that is a little less expensive. There are food co-ops and things like that in different parts. I think there is one in the Northeast.  You can supplement the expense that way.  Organic vegetables, yes, they are more expensive, but if people started consuming more of them, then farmers would want to grow more of them. Then the price would come down.  But right now, they’re in the minority as opposed to the majority. It takes maybe more time to initially cultivate good soil to grow good organic food, but in the long run, you would save on chemicals and all kinds of other stuff like that. Then, an organic vegetable produces a seed and you can save that seed.  It’s more of a win-win situation, as opposed to what we have right now—if that makes sense. And some organic vegetables are inexpensive. Community gardens are a great idea too. That could offset some of it. Join a community garden, or maybe try to see some time-share on something.  But it’s more about supply and demand. And then, in the wintertime, it’s cold out, so you’re going to have to get food sourced from different places or from an organic grower who’s paying to keep their stuff in a greenhouse and continue growing things.  That’s not something that people did traditionally.

There has been a big upswing of community gardens in Philadelphia. And people are raising chickens for eggs and actual poultry in many places, too.
DW:  There is an organization, the Environmental Working Group (EWG), and they have the Dirty Dozen and the Clean 15—the 12 fruits and vegetables that are the most polluted and the most chemicalized that you should avoid at all costs, and the Clean 15 that are relatively safe.  I think that’s a really great resource to know which fruits and vegetables are fine to pick commercially. Berries I would only eat organic. I wouldn’t eat commercial berries because they’re at the top of the [Dirty Dozen] list. But you’d be surprised at what is okay. Kale is one of the most heavily sprayed crops.  And it’s one of the healthiest vegetables.

SW:  It’s so easy to grow.

Kale is something we should be buying organic because of the amount of chemical spray?
SW:  You can grow that on your back doorstep.  Seriously.  It grows better in cold weather.  Snow could pile on top of it, and if you have good soil, the kale will still be there.

DW:  I don’t remember the whole list, but kale and collards were on the Dirty Dozen;  [the list] is readily available online.  We try to buy as much organically grown as we can, but I know a lot of people can’t.  And even for us—I mean, this is our life—but prices are getting more and more expensive all the time.  Every time I go to shop, I’m like, ‘This is more than it was last time I was here.  What’s going on?’  So, I know that’s a real concern.  As far as grains and beans, if they’re whole grains, then I wouldn’t worry about organic if money is an issue, because the phytic acid in the brand of whole grains and beans gives a certain amount of protection against environmental pollutants.  So, even though a lot of pollution is on the outer layers, there is a natural protection.

One of Colin Campbell’s recommendations is it’s the food, not the nutrient, that gives the benefit.  It you take nutrients out of context by eating supplements, you don’t get the same benefit as eating whole foods. His explanation, I think, is just great: When you eat a whole foods, plant-based diet such as we’re recommending, your body picks what it needs when it needs it in the exact quantities. So, our body is actually picking and choosing in the same ways if you have your cupboards well-stocked in your refrigerator. When you go to cook, you pick what you need at the time, and everything else might be there, but you don’t pay attention to it. Our body does the same thing. Our body, if we eat healthy foods, is actually picking and choosing, which means there is much more benefit to eating whole grains and beans, even if they’re not organically grown, than being more careful with which fruits and vegetables you choose.  I think people will benefit in every way. So, the organic is not the essential part; it’s the basic food choices.  Organic just improves it.

SW:  The [organic] flavor is different.  I’m very serious.

DW:  The flavor is definitely different.

SW:  If you go to cut a [organic] vegetable, it’s going to cut differently.  It’s going to look differently.  It’s going to taste differently.  The sweetness of a carrot or an onion that’s grown organically, as opposed to maybe something else, like certain red onions can be more sharp, and certain red onions can be more sweet.

Can we go through the seven steps and talk about them a little bit for our readers? We talked about the whole idea of mindful eating, and step one, I think, really covers that—the whole idea of taking time for your meals every day. 

DW: Sure. They are as follows:

1. Take time for your meals every day. That sets the tone, because in order to make healthy food choices, you need to connect with your food—not watching TV or listening to the radio or doing anything else. In order to have a conversation and to communicate, we have to be together. It’s really the same with food. Sitting down and taking time for your meals is really the most important thing, and it’s the one thing that’s disappearing. The single most-important thing, if you want to be healthy, is take time for at least one meal a day. The one meal you want carved in stone is lunch. Take time for your lunch. It does wonders for your health every day.

2. Set your daily schedule to have regularity of your meal times. They’re discovering now the range of when you eat is important, but our digestive system is only active at certain times to receive nourishment: in the morning, around midday and early evening. Other than that, your digestive system is not really there to receive nourishment. You probably have some older relatives who were fastidious about their meals, and they had to be 5 or 5:30pm everyday. The later you eat, the longer it takes to digest your food. The earlier you eat, the faster you digest. From 5 to 7pm, you’re still okay. But 8 or 9pm, it takes much longer.

3. Eat two or three complete, nutritiously balanced meals every day. What does a healthy meal need? We were taught that its animal and dairy protein, but that’s mythology. Plant protein is superior in every way. It’s direct nourishment. You’re not depending on a cow, a pig or a chicken to process it for you. You’re getting it direct. The next most important thing is to plan our meals around grains and vegetables, followed by soups. If someone says, ‘Well, meat is too important,’ then put your meat on your brown rice, on your polenta if you want or your pasta. At least get your grain in there. If we eat grains and beans ourselves, today we’d have enough food to feed every person on this planet, but when we feed them to animals, we don’t. So, whether you’re thinking about us individually, or the environment or the planet, starting to eat the grains and beans ourselves is the most important step forward.

4. Make your daily life active. “Exercise and activity became confused. I like to ask people in my lectures this question: When do you think people were healthier? In the past, when we were naturally active from day-to-day, or now that we’re highly exercise-conscious? If you’ve been around long enough, you can see the change. People used to be outside. Kids were outside. The adults were out. Everybody was outside, and everyone was active. Now we’re not active, so we’ve substituted exercise for activity.  People will say, ‘Well, Denny is against exercise.’ No, I’m not. I’m for activity. Natural activity—walking and taking the stairs and cleaning your house. Cart things around. And then, if you want to go to the gym after, then go. But don’t miss the activity. Kids learn better when they play. They benefit in every way. We keep putting all this effort into our education system, and we should send our kids out to play.”

5. Create a more natural environment. The most important things are natural ventilation from opening doors and windows. Now rooms are becoming ventilated and sealed. That’s not good. We need to let in fresh air and have green plants, plenty of green plants—the more, the better, because they filter the air. They allow you to feel refreshed.

6. Make your macrobiotic practice work. One, if you keep a food diary or a log of your food and activity, it’s the best learning tool there is because it forces you to be objective. Just simple notes: I ate this, I ate that, I drank this, I snacked, I walked. Then, two, always go back to the format. Always go back to sitting down, eating at regular times. Don’t put your concentration on what you eat. Put your concentration on how you eat, mindful eating, your approach to eating. That’s really what keeps us on track.

7. Cultivate the spirit of health. Health is really a spiritual quality. The macrobiotic definition of health is that spiritual health—which means endless appreciation for all of life—guides mental and emotional health: to be calm and peaceful, to have a sense of joy and to have a good memory. Mental and emotional health guide physical health. It doesn’t work in the opposite direction. We see health as an enduring spiritual quality. That’s what produces lasting health. And the other things are to try to be accurate, try to be open and curious about life. Create a support network. Those things combined really produce a different degree of health than people are enjoying now.

Follow Denny Waxman on Twitter: @dennywaxman